Curse

AKB48 · Jun 21, 2009, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hailey Anne

And Reversal of Damage which incase you didnt know dmgs the caster of WK.
I have yet to die under WK.

Dunno, I used to kill turtles with my A/N with Reversal on them, the problem i had is when there is a monk with several healing skills. With the A/N the way I play it is I don't just let WK do the work, i use daggers to attack as well, and also, the 3 sec rc of reversal makes it but a little help to the survival of the turtle.

But i have seen different builts that swirls around WK, so I guess some are weaker than others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawil

I agree that A/N is tough but maybe WK could be one of those Elites that disable all your non-necro skills for 10 secs or something like that. The step up from ATT 12 to 16 should be a little more than 1 more degen and 1 more damage. But it's all good, I'll make due.

Actually that would have been a better update for WK, perhaps with just a little bit of power reduction. I really like your idea loz

themanj · Jun 21, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

roflany1 who claims wk wasnt unbalanced does not play this game

draxynnic · Jun 22, 2009, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael805

I was adding to your sarcasm, check your filters.

Adding a clause that says "If you're a Ritualist, when you use this you can have 40 extra energy on top of the rest of the effects of this spell just because you're a cool guy!" still seems dumb.

Strawman argument.

Item spells have a significant downside for the benefits they provide - you lose all the benefits of the staff or weapon/offhand you're using. This could be somewhere between 10 and 20 energy, up to 60 health (or more if using conditional health bonuses), a set of HSR and HCT bonuses, and so on. Adding 1 energy per point of Spawning Power while holding an item* would a) require investment (and the Ritualist is still getting less out of the deal than an Elementalist) and b) reduce the downside to using item spells. However, it wouldn't serve as a means of gaining energy, since an Insightful staff with Hale and Hearty would still grant more energy than having 16 in Spawning Power.

Mighty Was Vorizun would probably need to be debuffed, but since the energy gain it provides came about because ANet acknowledged that using an item denied the energy from the usual weapon set.

In terms of in-game lore, it has a simple explanation - the Ritualist has learned to draw from energy stored within the ashpots in just the same way any character can draw energy from a staff, focus, or weapon with the "I Have The Power" inscription.

*Possibly just fragile items - this would stop Ritualists from becoming default flag runners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raku Clayman

I, for one, think they made COP stronger, not weaker. Sure, the damage is 50, not 100, but, they added a -5 degen and made it an interrupt skill, which, when used right, is way more effective than it used to be.

CoP always was an interrupt skill. It's just that the damage was so good that that was what it was primarily used for.

Michael805 · Jun 22, 2009, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

too long to quote

A strawman argument would be that sins can't use daggers while holding an item, so they're balanced. We're both talking about rit's holding items and their effects on energy.

Having the ability to hold an item and gain energy from them because of an attribute (or just because someone was feeling generous), rather than the skill, should not happen. Items are treated as weapon sets in themselves. At the moment they are in line with other weapon sets. What you're wanting to do is basically combine multiple weapon sets into one. While holding PwK, you would have the equivalent to a shield set (minus the health, but more armor) and a caster set in one, along with a party heal. Obviously a lot of the item spells can't be interpreted like this, but they don't see use now anyway.

Lore is retarded. Anything that takes lore into serious consideration is also.

Hailey Anne · Jun 22, 2009, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

I must say, you're hilarious.

Tell me this: When you have a single self heal, no monks around you, have weaken knees + enduring toxin + shameful fear on you, and a warrior/assassin chasing you, how do you survive? Do you run and die of the hexes, or do you stand still and get ripped apart by the warrior/assassin? Or are you so amazing that you can somehow magically keep yourself alive with a single self heal? I must know.

Magically?
Ya ok. Sorry you fail.
I either play monk which obviously I can keep myself alive or assassin. Shadow step/snare and kill the necro Shadow Ref as heal boosts hp up qute a bit plau the regen outweighs the degen. Not difficult to do if you know what you're doing.

Arkantos · Jun 22, 2009, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hailey Anne

Magically?
Ya ok. Sorry you fail.
I either play monk which obviously I can keep myself alive or assassin. Shadow step/snare and kill the necro Shadow Ref as heal boosts hp up qute a bit plau the regen outweighs the degen. Not difficult to do if you know what you're doing.

Sorry, but the only thing that fails here is your argument. Of course you're going to stay up as a monk, that's not difficult at all.

If the necro is half decent, he's going to have a IMS, and go after you when you're already fighting someone. So when you're in the middle of fighting, he's going to cast his hexes and run away. Even if you do manage to shadow step to him, you're already going to be damaged.

Now, assuming the necro is terrible and tries to kill you while you're not attacking anything:
Unless you're running 14 shadow arts (which would be pretty fail), the regen doesn't outweigh the degen. Not to mention the necro will probably have faintheartedness, which is more degen, and slows your attack rate. On top of that, the necro will probably have insidious parasite, which not only makes it longer for you to kill it, but it also damages you. So, you have 10+ degen, along with insidious on you. Go ahead, kill the necro, you're still going to have degen and less than half your health. Cast shadow refuge, you're going to have 6 seconds of regen. Seeing as the necro isn't going to be the only person around, you're going to die.

Against an assassin 1v1, the build is pretty laughable. But Guild Wars isn't balanced for 1v1. If you can't see how the skill was degenerate and bad for the game, then you don't know what proper balance is.

draxynnic · Jun 22, 2009, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael805

A strawman argument would be that sins can't use daggers while holding an item, so they're balanced. We're both talking about rit's holding items and their effects on energy.

Having the ability to hold an item and gain energy from them because of an attribute (or just because someone was feeling generous), rather than the skill, should not happen. Items are treated as weapon sets in themselves. At the moment they are in line with other weapon sets. What you're wanting to do is basically combine multiple weapon sets into one. While holding PwK, you would have the equivalent to a shield set (minus the health, but more armor) and a caster set in one, along with a party heal. Obviously a lot of the item spells can't be interpreted like this, but they don't see use now anyway.

Lore is retarded. Anything that takes lore into serious consideration is also.

Your strawman was in suggesting people wanted to get "like 40 energy" for summoning a pot, which no-one has. 40 is clearly ridiculous, while a figure that is potentially less then the energy you forfeit by summoning the pot is not so ridiculous.

Even ignoring the fact that PwK is one of the few item spells that does get used and even then it's more for the party heal than the armour bonus, let's consider it. Instead of using PwK, the Ritualist could be using an offhand with the Ignorance is Bliss inscription and a spear with the Defense inscription. That gives said Ritualist the SAME oh-so-valuable armour bonus that PwK provides. This armour bonus is also combined with a net +7 energy from the offhand, whatever benefit the focus core grants, whatever benefit the spear inscription grants (which could be I Have The Power to bring net energy back to +12 - and on a caster, probably WILL be), and whatever benefit the spearhead grants. Oh, and the ritualist can also attack with the spear. Won't do much damage without investment of points, but it's there - and the suggestion here requires investment of attribute points in Spawning Power.

Now, take PwK with, say, 12 Spawning Power under the suggestion. What does that give you? 10 armour and 12 energy. The spear/offhand set can match that easily, while still giving the benefit from the spearhead, the focus core, and whatever token damage throwing the spear gives. On the other hand, PwK costs you the energy it cost to summon it and a skill slot. On an analysis of the benefits of carrying PwK versus a regular weapon/offhand set with appropriate mods, the weapon/offhand set wins every time.

Of course, this argument ignores the fact that most pots, including PwK, aren't intended to act as a substitute for a weapon/offhand set. Instead, many of them act as a kind of 'stored spell' - they may provide some small benefit while carried to compensate for the loss of the weapon/offhand set, but the main payoff comes when the bundle is dropped and the spell effect goes off. This is where the real argument against the idea comes from - that the loss of energy is the cost of being able to 'hold' the spell, not that the benefits of holding the pot come anything near the benefits of a well-chosen weapon/offhand set.

Your argument might apply better to some of those pots that are designed to be held rather than stored and dropped - but apart from VwK farming, who uses them? Maybe to trigger effects conditional on carrying an item, but believe me, in those cases, the pot is a price you pay to get the conditional effect, not a benefit in and of itself (and even then, builds doing this tend to be sub-par in my experience). Possibly because few if any of them are worth the cost of losing the benefits from your weapon and offhand to use, let alone the energy and skill slot it takes to use them?

tl;dr:

A fairly simple analysis can show that even with this proposed bonus, many pots still actually come up deficient compared to a good staff or weapon/offhand set that doesn't cost energy or a skill slot to bring. The fact that, on the whole, pots AREN'T used should, furthermore, be an indication that perhaps they could use a boost.

As for the lore thing: You started it, by asking how a pot could "magically" give energy. I simply answered your question, but if you want it summarised: Maaaaa-giiiiic. *wiggles fingers*

Hailey Anne · Jun 22, 2009, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Sorry, but the only thing that fails here is your argument. Of course you're going to stay up as a monk, that's not difficult at all.

If the necro is half decent, he's going to have a IMS, and go after you when you're already fighting someone. So when you're in the middle of fighting, he's going to cast his hexes and run away. Even if you do manage to shadow step to him, you're already going to be damaged.

Now, assuming the necro is terrible and tries to kill you while you're not attacking anything:
Unless you're running 14 shadow arts (which would be pretty fail), the regen doesn't outweigh the degen. Not to mention the necro will probably have faintheartedness, which is more degen, and slows your attack rate. On top of that, the necro will probably have insidious parasite, which not only makes it longer for you to kill it, but it also damages you. So, you have 10+ degen, along with insidious on you. Go ahead, kill the necro, you're still going to have degen and less than half your health. Cast shadow refuge, you're going to have 6 seconds of regen. Seeing as the necro isn't going to be the only person around, you're going to die.

Against an assassin 1v1, the build is pretty laughable. But Guild Wars isn't balanced for 1v1. If you can't see how the skill was degenerate and bad for the game, then you don't know what proper balance is.

Funny, because I havent died under WK. I dont 1v1 at all I go after npcs but if I get hexed with something that could potentially kill me if I dont react I am smart enough to shadow step right away. Again im sorry you fail.
but i'm done with you, not my fault if you suck that bad.

Kawil · Jun 22, 2009, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Hailey...c'mon now. I think you're missing the point Arkantos is trying to make. Let's get this back on the actual skill and not calling peeps out.

I think WK got nerfed too hard for NECRO primaries that invest with a Sup Rune. I know it won't kill by itself and I don't ask it to. So, as a good little necro, I bring Insidious (as Arkantos mentioned, lol) and I attack others that are already engaged. Is that good tactics for a team game? Isn't getting a 2v1 advantage something that you strive for? All things being equal, the greater numbers will usually win. You should die if you get teamed on. So don't go around throwing that "Game Balance" talk around if that's the case. However, as I said before, up the damage and degen at 16 to something more than 1 more on each or cause all non-necro skills to be disabled for 10 secs.

Arkantos · Jun 22, 2009, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hailey Anne

Funny, because I havent died under WK. I dont 1v1 at all I go after npcs but if I get hexed with something that could potentially kill me if I dont react I am smart enough to shadow step right away. Again im sorry you fail.
but i'm done with you, not my fault if you suck that bad.

Yes, I suck so bad that when a WK necro and a damage dealer attack me, I die because I have a single self heal and no monk support. One day, I wish to be as good as you. Until then, I'll continue sucking so bad. Continue being amazing at this game, sir.

But I do believe you're missing why the skill was nefed. It wasn't nerfed because the damage was too high, it was nerfed because of its effect. It took no skill to use. As a cast and forget hex in areas where you must run around, it was way too overpowered.

Michael805 · Jun 22, 2009, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Your strawman was in suggesting people wanted to get "like 40 energy" for summoning a pot, which no-one has. 40 is clearly ridiculous, while a figure that is potentially less then the energy you forfeit by summoning the pot is not so ridiculous.

It was meant to be over the top. It's what I do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Even ignoring the fact that PwK is one of the few item spells that does get used and even then it's more for the party heal than the armour bonus, let's consider it.

I used it because it sees most play. And the armor bonus was quite useful before the nerf, which was why it was nerfed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

stuff about inscritions and weapon sets and stuff

I think what I was referring to was PwK armor bonus + the +10 armor while holding an item insignia, which is +20 armor overall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Oh, and the ritualist can also attack with the spear.

20 damage: game changing. Actually, that would be a wand. Spear is more like... 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Now, take PwK with, say, 12 Spawning Power under the suggestion. What does that give you? 10 armour and 12 energy. The spear/offhand set can match that easily, while still giving the benefit from the spearhead, the focus core, and whatever token damage throwing the spear gives. On the other hand, PwK costs you the energy it cost to summon it and a skill slot. On an analysis of the benefits of carrying PwK versus a regular weapon/offhand set with appropriate mods, the weapon/offhand set wins every time.

The item bonuses are there to offset the loss of energy. If you want more energy, that's where the sacrificial part of the game comes in to play. More energy > effect of the item? Drop it. Not? Keep it. Also keep in mind that "effect" is not only refering to the passive effect, but also the one that takes place after it is dropped (assuming it has one, as in the case of PwK).

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Of course, this argument ignores the fact that most pots, including PwK, aren't intended to act as a substitute for a weapon/offhand set. Instead, many of them act as a kind of 'stored spell' - they may provide some small benefit while carried to compensate for the loss of the weapon/offhand set, but the main payoff comes when the bundle is dropped and the spell effect goes off. This is where the real argument against the idea comes from - that the loss of energy is the cost of being able to 'hold' the spell, not that the benefits of holding the pot come anything near the benefits of a well-chosen weapon/offhand set.

Again, sacrifice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Possibly because few if any of them are worth the cost of losing the benefits from your weapon and offhand to use, let alone the energy and skill slot it takes to use them?

Most of them aren't, as is the case with most of the rit skills. This is due to a poorly designed class. Buff them? They're too powerful. Nerf them? They're unusable. Most of the rit class needs a complete reworking, which won't happen.

You're wanting rits to be an all-in-one awesomefest, and awesomefests are just too much awesome for one game to handle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

As for the lore thing: You started it, by asking how a pot could "magically" give energy. I simply answered your question, but if you want it summarised: Maaaaa-giiiiic. *wiggles fingers*

I was making a joke. As noted by the magical unicorns.

Just to drive my point home, here are a few examples of why this is bad:
Energetic Was Lee Sa: If you take the passive item effect and combine it with extra energy, that would be a necro or ele's wet dream.
Generous Was Tsungrai: I can have more health AND more energy? obaby.
Mighty Was Vorizun: Health, armor, and even more energy, oh my.

Just thought of this and don't feel like scrolling up: Right now rits are limited by their energy. Throwing items into it only helps this out, because they have to choose between their energy pool and the item effect. If they were to have more energy, what's stopping them from just spamming resilient weapon an 5 people, and warding on the other 2, while keeping party heals going through PwK, and having an extra 20 armor just because?

MadHouse · Jun 22, 2009, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Geez c'mon ppl WK wasn't nerfed because it was OP in JQ!!!....Anet dont give a shit about JQ or else they would nerf RoJ as well to death not some HM nerfing for NPC scatter....RoJ has not changed=WK wasnt nerfed bc of that, period.

WK was nerfed because it punished kiting and splitting and that the tactical game play in a way that it was ridicilous. You dont need to 1v1 Hailey just get into an arena like RA, TA, or do some GvG...thats all. The damage alone could be handled actually but the recharge was so short that the necro could spread it out 24/7 along with LC if we are here (just tabbing around for lulz). If you ask me WK should not even exist in it's current form even after the nerf.

I really cant understand why ppl like to make pointless arguments over and over on this forum but oh well...at least I can laugh a good one

Short · Jun 22, 2009, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadHouse

Geez c'mon ppl WK wasn't nerfed because it was OP in JQ!!!....Anet dont give a shit about JQ or else they would nerf RoJ as well to death not some HM nerfing for NPC scatter....RoJ has not changed=WK wasnt nerfed bc of that, period.

WK was nerfed because it punished kiting and splitting and that the tactical game play in a way that it was ridicilous. You dont need to 1v1 Hailey just get into an arena like RA, TA, or do some GvG...thats all. The damage alone could be handled actually but the recharge was so short that the necro could spread it out 24/7 along with LC if we are here (just tabbing around for lulz). If you ask me WK should not even exist in it's current form even after the nerf.

I really cant understand why ppl like to make pointless arguments over and over on this forum but oh well...at least I can laugh a good one

Major flaw in your argument...NPCs do run from it in JQ now.

shadows of hob · Jun 22, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

NPC's do run from it, but a monk with 16 smiting prayers can STILL kill all npc's at a shrine in JQ, simply because the npc's run away way too late.

As for the wk argument, they nerfed it because it was too easy to use and it punished the other team too much for kiting and other tactital stuff.

AKB48 · Jun 23, 2009, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadows of hob

NPC's do run from it, but a monk with 16 smiting prayers can STILL kill all npc's at a shrine in JQ, simply because the npc's run away way too late.

Don't think anyone would go for 16 att. makes the caster too easy to kill, unless you then sacrifice energy insignia for health ones, even then it's hard to make up for the -75 hp.

Trinity Fire Angel · Jun 23, 2009, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadows of hob

NPC's do run from it, but a monk with 16 smiting prayers can STILL kill all npc's at a shrine in JQ, simply because the npc's run away way too late.

so do NPC's run from Firestorm as well????

Phenixfire · Jun 23, 2009, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKB48

Don't think anyone would go for 16 att.

"Anyone" = Not the average AB, JQ, nstuff player

Moreover, anyone who brought RoJ into AB (meh, can't say for JQ, not really playing this) failed. Eles outdid and still outdo them by far. Period.

About the argument Arkantos and whoeverelseiforgothisname were having

1. Melee in 1v1 vs. a half decent Necro (Insid, Faintheartedness (not even elites)) loses.
2. Self heals o.o? Be brave, bring frenzy (ah, you can take lions comfort on a warr, thats kewl, rest is a NoNo though) and trust in your monk.
3. Got no monk? WTB? Fail somewhere else then please.
4. Shadow Step? Srsly, once good, now nerfed far too much, i can think of at least 3 skills for each build i'd bring first....
5. WK ... too good, nerf was deserved. ESPECIALLY in low end PvP where most teams (means those that actually know what to do) are stuck with one monk (mostly one hex removal only). Having to deal with alot of other easily spammable hexes and a lot of kiting/running involved, it was too powerful (if it kills you by itself, well, fail more plx). Period.

AKB48 · Jun 23, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phenixfire

"Anyone" = Not the average AB, JQ, nstuff player

Moreover, anyone who brought RoJ into AB (meh, can't say for JQ, not really playing this) failed. Eles outdid and still outdo them by far. Period.

So basically you are justifying shadows of hob's arguement based on a few players? Not a smart thing to do.

Also, Roj = aoe skills like sandstorm, savanna heat, etc. So it in itself isn't much more of a shrine clearer(like the skills used in the E/A solo cap build in AB), except the skill is in the monk profession. And ofc eles out do monks damage wise.......they are meant to be a damage chucking machine.

Neo Nugget · Jun 23, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Update - Monday, June 22, 2009

Bug Fixes
Fixed a bug that caused Xinrae's Weapon, Vengeful Weapon, Nightmare Weapon, and Weapon of Remedy to heal the caster rather than the target.
Fixed a bug that caused Spirit Siphon to appear twice on the skill list when interacting with a Priest of Balthazar.
Fixed a bug that prevented the Guild Versus Guild Zaishen Combat Quest from properly updating.

Well, that was a random update. Thought it would be tournament house related.

Divine Ashes · Jun 23, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Nugget

Update - Monday, June 22, 2009

Well, that was a random update. Thought it would be tournament house related.

I was hoping for the same...I wonder if ANET could possibly provide a timetable for these points? Also, maybe they should release some statement on the state of the Tourney house for next month...